Ep.07 - From Performing Arts to Performing Weddings with Hope Mirlis
Hope Mirlis started out in performing arts but now performs weddings. Her big career moves coincided with big geographical moves, too. Originally from NYC, she moved to Atlanta to pursue performing arts, and then went to California to get a Master’s of Fine Arts. A friend asked Hope to officiate their wedding, and that changed everything. Hope and Karen discuss the path to an intentional career, and the many twists and turns that happen along the way. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on my website.
Transcription
Transcription created with DeScript.
Karen: I’m Karen Styles and this is the Intentional Career Podcast. I talk to all kinds of people who take all kinds of paths to work they love.
I'm a career and life coach and owner of Flow + Fire coaching. If you’re ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me. There’s a link in the show notes or go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue “schedule a call” button.
Today my guest is Hope Mirlis. Hope is a registered New York City wedding officiant, an ordained interfaith minister and a certified yoga instructor. She founded her business A More Perfect Union and created a premarital counseling program. She's been guiding couples around the world from the "Yes" to the "I do" since 2009.
Welcome Hope, I'm so glad to have you here.
Hope: I'm super excited to be here and I'm super excited to know who that person is that you introduced!
Karen: She sounds pretty impressive, I must admit.
Hope: I know!
Karen: So you are a wedding officiant and apparently that was not always your plan, correct?
Hope: Oh, it was so never my plan!
Karen: It was so never your plan? So let's talk about how you ended up here. What was the plan or what were you doing when this came up in your life?
Hope: So as a child, I was very outgoing. I was a little performer from the very, very beginning, so I always thought, and I think my family always thought that I would definitely go down that path. So I performed as a child. I danced as a child and then I started choreographing. I wound up going to college eventually getting a performing arts degree and that's really where I was headed. I founded a theater company out of college as well.
Karen: Oh, no big deal. Just founded a theater company.
Hope: Yeah, so I was definitely down that path and I was making inroads. The company was doing very, very well. I was very satisfied as an artist and as an administrator. so it really truly made sense to continue down that path.
Karen: And so what was the dream at that point? You were going to create a theater company or be an actress - did you have a big goal?
Hope: I mean, I think early on, I thought I was going to be a big, famous actor, but that never seemed to be where things went. I remember speaking to a casting director years ago or one of my managers or agents that I was working with and I was like, Hey, what's going on?
Like, what kind of work is happening? What are you submitting me for? And she's like, well, I'm looking at submitting you for Lebanese roles. And I was like, oh, that's great. [I’m] not Lebanese. Is there a lot of work that you see for Lebanese actors? If you think that I can be on that path? And she's like, no, not really. And I was just like, okay, I can see myself not working as much as I wanted to.
And was really the impetus for the theater company that I founded with a few colleagues of mine that we said, you know what? We're not getting the work that we want. So why don't we create it?
And at that time I was living in Atlanta and there wasn't really a theater company doing the work that we wanted to do. There was, some very, very small companies and there were large institutions. We said. You know what, there's gotta be a middle ground. So we basically said... it's like that Mickey Rooney movie that was like, we got a barn, like let's put on a show.
So we did that, and then the business side caught up.
Karen: Oh, what do you mean by that? Like you had this idea and people were interested in it?
Hope: I mean, I always had business acumen, so that was kind of an easy thing for me, but I'd never run a theater company that was a not-for-profit arts organization. So, I mean, did we pay taxes? No. Did we know we were supposed to pay taxes? No. So eventually we realized, ah, great. By this time we did have a board of directors that were able to help us pay the taxes back to that. We owed the state and to the local municipality. But Yeah, it's like, Hey, let's do it. And then and then everything else will follow.
Karen: Right.
Hope: Thankfully, it kind of did.
Karen: For how long?
Hope: I was with the company for 10 years. The company is still going strong, which is pretty amazing. I mean, I'm not in that world anymore, so I'm not really in touch with what's happening, but yeah, it's kind of exciting to see the foundation that we started 24 years ago is still in play.
Karen: Wow. That's exciting.
So, something changed. You're not part of that world. You were in that world, creating, making the thing happen that didn't exist. And what changed? Something happened that you're now, in New York city living life as a wedding officiant.
Hope: So I kind of plateaued. It got to a point, I wasn't getting the work that I wanted to. People saw me as more of an administrator for a theater company and not as a performer anymore. And I really wasn't sure what to do during that time. I did leave Atlanta to take a training program.
We got some grants as an organization for personal growth, for organizational growth, but it really wasn't enough. So I realize, and it took a lot of soul searching. It took a lot of, crying with friends and colleagues to say, you know what? I don't think my place is in Atlanta anymore. If I looked at the potential of leaving Atlanta, what would that look like? If I left the company that I helped start 10 years ago is that doable?
So, really, truly weighing where my career could go versus what I was having now and the dissatisfaction that I was having in my career at that time.
Karen: So signs were pointing to dissatisfaction. This isn't quite what I want anymore.
Hope: Correct. Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of looked to see what was out there. And it's really funny before I even knew, or maybe as I was knowing, I interviewed about, oh gosh, I want to say at least… So I was an artistic director or a producing artistic director for a theater company and I did this with three other women. So we were all co-producing artistic directors, but I interviewed either 8 or 10 other artistic directors in Atlanta and recorded the interviews. Just to get a better idea about what they do, where they're satisfied, where they feel dissatisfied. And I basically said, I may be looking to make a change. I don't know what that looks like. Please don't tell everybody.
Karen: Oh, so this was like an informational interview. You're kind of networking with people and putting out feelers.
Hope: A little bit. To say, hey, what's out there, what's possible? I think that landed me an interview with a theater company to potentially partner on a grant that would allow me to join their company and they would get funding for that collaboration of me joining with them, but that didn't work.
So it was really looking to say, okay, what's next? It turned out, at that time, at that 10 year mark, there were three of us running the company. And then two of us wound up leaving the company at the same time.
And then I still didn't know what my next steps would be, but I knew because of the way that my world interacted in Atlanta, that I couldn't stay if I really wanted to pursue the work that I wanted to pursue. And there was something that was a little...I guess it was hard for me to see the work of a theater company that I helped found. If I couldn't be a part of it, so I was finally able to leave, I was able to break that tether. And it felt okay.
So I started looking for MFA programs, Masters of Fine Arts programs that were mid-career because I wasn't right out of college. I had at least 20 years of experience in the business. So, there were a few that were out there. I had informational interviews, and then I was brought out to the University of California Davis for their program, which was a super small program that I then got into and then decided to attend.
Karen: Okay, so you go from Atlanta to California.
Hope: And then one of my classmates asked me to officiate her wedding.
Karen: Oh, just out of blue?
Hope: Out of the blue! She's like, hey, what are you doing on December 30th, 2009? And I was like, nothing, what are you doing? And I was thinking that she was going to say we're having an engagement party,
Karen: Right. And at what point of the year did she ask you this?
Hope: She asked me this probably about two months prior.
Karen: Okay. Okay.
Hope: And I was like, wait, what? No, no.
Karen: No.
Hope: And she was like, what do you mean, no? And I was like, well, why? Why me? Like, why? I don't understand.
Karen: Yeah.
Hope: And she wore me down cause, I kept like throwing all these roadblocks in her way. I was like, legally, I don't have this. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to do this. And she's like, oh, we will figure it out. And I was like, oh, you totally will. So I was able to get a permit from the county to perform one ceremony on one day. And we gathered on a beach in Sausalito, California on December 30th, 2009. And I performed my first ceremony.
Karen: And so you originally said no. And then you went for it. What made you change your mind?
Hope: I realized that I had to take my ego out of it, that it wasn't about...that I really needed to step in there and be there for my friend in whatever way she needed me.
Karen: And she couldn't find an officiant that she liked or wanted? Or you were going to bring something to her wedding that she needed?
Hope: She wanted me to be there on behalf of her friends. So it was a very small gathering. It was just her family. Basically, it was each of the bride and the groom's children. And a pair of adult witnesses and that was it. So they said on behalf of our friends, would you do this for us? And I'm like, no. And then I'm like, yeah, you know what? I have to do this for her and we'll figure it out.
Karen: Yeah.
Hope: And we did. I mean, she figured out the legal portion of it. I figured out what a ceremony needs to have legally and then what would be nice to add to it? Incorporating their kids in it, knowing that we're standing on a beach, and what does that mean to the couple? What does that mean to relationships and being able to incorporate that piece into a very, very simple wedding ceremony?
Karen: And that's so beautiful that you could symbolically represent all the friends that were joining them together.
Hope: Yeah, I think they wanted to make it as simple as possible. And they wound up having a gathering - a party- later, but they really just wanted to keep it very small and special. And I was very humbled as I continue to be humbled when couples invite me into that world, into that celebration of their union, of their relationship.
Karen: So, how did that go from being a one-off thing to now, this IS my thing.
Hope: It took about two years.
Karen: Okay.
Hope: So, I mean, after I performed that first ceremony, I was like, WHOAH, what is that? I was like, that is super freaking cool.
Karen: Yeah. Tell me more about that. What did that feel like? Or what was that experience like for you?
Hope: Well, it's like, it felt to me in a way, this culmination of a lot of things that I've already done. I felt like I started stepping into a calling and I couldn't describe it. I mean, I don't think I would say those words at that time, but I was like, huh, that's cool. I'm good at that.
And even the couple were like, we knew you were going to be good at it. We didn't know you were going to be THAT good at it. So I was like, great. I'm now going to make myself available. And I was involved in the catering community as well. And that's a job that I've had since I was a teenager. So I started letting the catering community know, hey, if you need an officiant, if you're catering a wedding and you need, or you know of a couple that may need... so I kind of just started sprinkling it out there.
Karen: Yeah.
Hope: But, kind of like more, as a joke or like, yeah, I can add this to what I'm already doing.
Karen: Kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks I'm like, maybe I'll try this thing?
Hope: Well, yeah. I had my MFA at that time, I was performing, I was teaching, I was working administratively for a number of dance companies. So I was working. Was I satisfied in that world? Not really, but again, like I picked myself up, for now, the third time and started fresh.
I left New York as a teenager and went to Atlanta. And then I left Atlanta. I went to Northern California for grad school, and then I left grad school and went further west to the Berkeley / Oakland / Bay Area and started my professional career all over again. So it was like, I can make this all work.
And then I think when I was sitting on my bed in Oakland, California, I was like, what if I don't have to make it all work? Like what happens if I can start releasing some things that no longer resonate? That no longer work for me? And I think I kind of sat there and I remember that feeling.
But, Facebook became really popular, right when I got to grad school, which was hilarious because I mean, I was at that time 36 years old and I'm getting on Facebook with all the kids and I'm like, what the heck is this? I felt like all of a sudden cool, because at that time you could only get a Facebook invite if you were a university student. So I was like, I got one of those. I mean, very, very shortly after that, I'm saying like a few weeks after that, they opened it up to the general population. So it wasn't all that exciting for that for the very, very beginning, but you know, that's how I started.
I think I wrote on Facebook, that revelation, like what happens if I release the performing arts piece? What does that look like in my life? And I felt like a weight coming off of my shoulders in a way that I would never have expected. And it felt like, you know what? I feel like I'm finally on the correct path.
Karen: Hmm. And so were you on the path of focusing on your business at that point? Or was it just mainly about letting go of performing?
Hope: It was a little bit of both just because I was still working in the field. I was still working for a theater, for a dance company. I still had things going on that I couldn't fully release. But I was like, okay,I have this business. I think at the time that I started it I was personal cheffing and doing yoga.
And then I was like, okay, how can I add the officiant piece to that? And then I think a friend of mine was like, you let it go Hope. Let the catering piece go. You have this beautiful yoga practice and officiating practice, that makes much more sense. And at this point, because the first couple, unfortunately, we're having issues that I didn't find out about until the day of their wedding.
Karen: Oh!
Hope: Oh, yes. So I realized after I performed that first ceremony and I was going to check into what this officiant position could look like I said, if I go down this path, I need to be a better advocate for my couples. So I then created a premarital counseling program.
So that two years between that first ceremony and my second ceremony - which was also a pair of friends - that allowed me to really step into this role as an officiant and a premarital counselor. And moved back to New York, which is, I'm from here. This is my home.
Karen: Interesting. So then it became more about, I guess like the marriage and the relationship and not just the officiating the wedding part.
Hope: Yes. It made much more sense to me to be able to look at it holistically and then be able to give you know, couples that guidance. From the yes to the I do. Some couples do that with me fully, but some couples don't need it. So I really give them that option. I really truly thought that couples would do that full continuum with me. That I would guide them through premarital counseling, we would do a yoga practice, either leading up to or on the day of the wedding, and then I would officiate their ceremony sometime that day. But it's very separate, couples that come to me just for yoga just want me for yoga. There is more of an overlap between the counseling and the officiating, but I see a lot of couples who are like, no, we're having a friend officiate or we're having a priest officiate, or we're getting married out of the country. So we really just want only the premarital counseling section or I have couples that are like, we don't need premarital counseling, thanks, but would you officiate?
So for me, it's always yes, yes, and yes. I don't require anything. I don't require couples to do premarital counseling if I'm officiating for them. I want to make sure to make it available to them and make sure that they know the importance of the engagement period. And making sure to ask anything that they need to ask or share anything, or make sure that they know the expectations of their relationship before they get married. And I'm happy to guide that if they want that, but if they don't need it, more power to them, let them do that on their own.
But it's like, let's hope that they just do it.
Karen: Yeah. And so what role did moving back to New York play? Because it seems like you're making big shifts coincided with geographical moves as well.
Hope: I think that the idea of moving back to New York was really due to the fact that I'm an east coaster. I loved California, it's gorgeous. But it really didn't feel like home to me. And if I'm stepping into what I truly felt like was a calling that I really needed to be a place in a place where I could settle and be here for the long term.
By this point, my family had written off that I would ever come back to New York, so they stopped asking. And so then I kind of threw them for a little loop by going, hey guys, guess what? I'm coming back. And they're like, wait, what? You're what? And I was like, Yeah, I think it's time. It's time to come home.
Karen: And what did the people in your life think about you becoming a wedding officiant? Or seeing this big change? Sounds like to some of your close friends it totally made sense, but did other people have things to say about it?
Hope: I think that my friends got it. I think that they understood what it was and if they didn't, they asked me. My parents are hugely supportive of me, but they didn't get it and they didn't get it for a very long period of time. Especially the premarital counseling piece just because I'm not a therapist, I'm not trained as a counselor.
I created a program that made the most sense to me. So they basically were like, well, why do you feel like you can do that? Do your couples know that you have no training? Or do you think that if a couple is struggling, that you should send them to a professional? And it took me a while to go hold on a second, no, no, I'm a professional. I created this program. It took me two years to do it, it's not like I rushed into it. I looked to see what was out there, nothing resonated with me. So I said, how can I be the best advocate and the best guide for my couple? Both from the officiating side and from the counseling side. And if I didn't understand something or if I didn't know something, I took the time to research it because I knew that I'd get called out.
And I also want to make sure that, because if I want to be a really strong advocate and a strong guide, I have to have a lot of information and I have to have value for a couple in order to strengthen their relationship, strengthen their marriage to be, or celebrate their union. My uncle was a rabbi and ran a seminary here in New York City. He was one of the founders of the interfaith movement here in New York City. So even as a rabbi, he worked with leaders from all faiths, and even his seminary trained rabbis and trained officiants in a way that was very open.
Like I remember speaking to him, even as a child and, and, either singing in Hebrew with him, but he was also speaking more about spirituality and connectedness in, in a way that I appreciated, but didn't truly understand. I didn't realize this and I completely forgot about it, but my parents, I think once they came around to the fact that yes, I was doing this and yes, I was good at it and should be doing it and shouldn't be questioned for doing it.
They said, do you remember that your uncle asked you to join seminary out of high school? And I was like, what? No, I don't remember that at all. They're like, yeah. He asked you to be a Cantor, which is a singer in the synagogue. And then he said, you should join my seminary. And I said, no, and I completely forgot about it.
But it said to me that I wasn't ready at that time, I needed to experience a whole bunch of other stuff before I really truly stepped into that place.
Karen: And you're now an ordained interfaith minister.
Hope: Yeah.
Karen: And is that part of being an officiant or is that actually separate?
Hope: So it's kind of part of it. It's the legal piece, but that was the piece that I struggled with the most, especially because when I started. I was like, I can't do this because I don't have the authority to perform a legal wedding ceremony. So in California, you're able to get a permit.
You're not able to do that in most other states, especially New York. So when I got here, I reached out to the officiant community and I'm like, How do you do it? What's going on? So they sent me along the ordination path. Actually, I think as soon as I did that first ceremony, I went online and got ordained by the universal life church, which is what most friend officiants or family officiants do because it's legal. And it's crazy that you can get ordained in five minutes online. But does that make you a good, officiant? No.
Karen: Right.
Hope: Though some friend officiants may disagree with me or may not understand what it really means to be an officiant. So, I mean, I'm glad that I had that ordination immediately. And then I started on that two year path. Once I got here to New York another friend who lived in Virginia asked me to officiate and I had to apply to the Commonwealth of Virginia and I was denied with my ordination. So I said, okay, what's next? So I reached out to another few friends and said, Okay, I need to do something that's a little bit more vibrant than these online churches. So, I wound up getting ordained, for a third time with a church that I had to actually apply for. I had to have an in-person ordination. And I have to also pay annual dues. So that is the legal piece. So I am an ordained minister, but I am Jewish by faith. So don't usually come out and say that I'm a reverend, even though that's what legally is my title.
Karen: So interesting how all those pieces go together. It sounds like you, you followed a lot of little, I don't know, steps or breadcrumbs along the way to get where you needed to go. Can you identify, what were some of the specific, whether it was advice or resources or people, what were the things that helped you in creating this intentional career?
Hope: I think it was the releasing, the letting go along the way. I mean, I think the biggest one was the leaving of Atlanta and it was sitting down and crying with two really close friends of mine. And I hadn't thought of the leaving at that point.
And it was, in a quiet voice, one of my really close friends said, what do you think about leaving the company? What do you think about leaving Atlanta? And it was like, oh, no! That's not possible! What are you talking about? But it put a seed in there to go, wait, is it? Like, what's holding me here? I complain about being landlocked in Atlanta, even though I loved Atlanta. And it was really such an amazing community, a supportive arts community, and it still is. But I felt like I reached the end of that.
And then I sat down with a second friend, I think, like in the middle of crying. And it was really late at night. I was in my pajamas and a friend of mine was just like, come over, just come over. And I don't think she was trying to be harsh, but she said, Hope you're good at these things that you're trying to hold on to. Like, you're a good actor. You're a really good theater administrator, but there are people that do it better than you. And I was like… (gasp).
Karen: Ouch.
Hope: it was a complete ouch moment, but it was also a real big eye-opener to say, you know what? I think you're right. That's what got me on the path of going to get my MFA to say, okay, fine. If I'm not the best at it, what do I need to do to get there?
And what do I need to do to, you know, save my ass and have a terminal degree that I can teach at the college level? Because I was already teaching and I enjoyed teaching. Hey, if I can't perform, that's okay. I have a lot of skills. I have a lot of stuff that I've learned, and I have a lot of things that I can share and support and guide. So I can still do that. And that felt to me very...there was a possibility.
Karen: It's interesting how that insult kind of gave you permission also to explore something else.
Hope: Yeah. And it did make me say, well, yeah, that's okay. I may not be the best at that. So what can I be the best at? I mean, especially, I think we were even looking at the logistics of it. That there were some actors that were willing to do anything and everything in order to work. And I wasn't.
There were things that I was like, I'm not working for no pay. Or I'm not working in the middle of the night, or I'm not trying to do that. So that particular fire in me, didn't make as much sense. So I said, okay, I get that. So I need to find what truly lights me up, or I need to find where I am the best.
Karen: I like that you mentioned too how your reaction was, no. First for leaving Atlanta, and then becoming an officiant, like your first reaction was no. And I try to tell people that when they're trying to make changes with people around them, I try to remind myself of that when I'm talking to clients, right?
To say, what about this? And to not take offense when someone says no, because that can be very often at first response. It's okay. It's okay if someone says no, because that's your lizard brain going, no, we can't change something! We're going to die!
I like that, yeah, you can say no. And then the answer might be yes in the end, which is funny, thinking about how this is related to marriage.
[both laugh]
Hope: You know, I started getting there in my head. To say, hey, when have I offered something to a couple, or a suggestion in counseling? And they come back with no. So, yeah, I actually just wrote that down by the way.
Karen: [laughs] Great.
Hope: But yeah, I'm a Taurus. I do not like change. It's like, no, no, no. I'm going to hang back here and make it work and I'm going to make it work and I'm going to make it work. And so I was like, I can't make it work. Or I have friends that say, maybe you can't make it work.
Karen: Right. And I think it can be tricky when you have a dream and you're going for it. And sometimes we get these messages too, about how you just have to hold on and you just have to keep going. And sometimes there's a lot of value in quitting. When the thing is not right for you anymore.
What about advice that you ignored to your benefit? Was there anything, people told you things you should do and you said, no, that's not for me?
Hope: I'm trying to think if there was something during grad school. The program that I was in at UC Davis was very, very small. And I think because we were mid-career artists, they didn't really keep a huge, tight hold on us. SoI had a little bit of latitude to be able to kind of do what I wanted.
During my interview, one of the faculty said you're going to have to do a thesis. To grow to graduate. You know, if you had to do anything you wanted, what, what would that be? And then I think I said something and she was like, no, no, make it bigger. No, no, no, no. Make it bigger. Make it bigger. And then when we got to when classes started that fall, they gave us a very tight parameter of what our thesis was going to look. And I'm like, wait, no, no, no. You've been yelling at me to be bigger, think bigger, dream bigger. And now you're putting us in a box.
So I said, fine, I'll do your little box thing. And I'm also going to do my dream big thing. And let's just see what happens. And it was a pretty amazing thing. I mean, I'm okay. By having let go of my artistic paths, but there are also some things that I'm super proud of from that past as well.
And especially during that period of time, which was a very interesting transition from running a theater company to fully just being an artist. It was very funny. Cause one of my closest friends was in the program and he was a lighting designer. And he's like, what did you guys do in class today? And I was like, we crawled around the floor and we made funny noises and he was like, you what? And I was like, I know! And yeah, so it was, it was kind of exciting to be able to have released a lot of them. The outside elements to be able to play and explore because it was a muscle that I had released.I hadn't practiced that way for a while.
So, I mean, now I, as I'm writing wedding ceremonies or as couples reach out to me and they're like, Hey, we're not getting married in a church, so we don't have to follow those rules. We want to make sure our ceremony is very us. How do we do that?
It allows me to think in a very creative way. I had a meeting with a couple the other day and I said you know, at the end of the ceremony I will be proclaiming you married, it's called the proclamation or the declaration of marriage. And the groom was like, doot-do-do doo! And I was like, yes. And he's like, we should do that. And then all of a sudden, we got in this whole conversation about like, do we get like horns? Do we get kazoos? And it got to be this beautiful conversation about how we can really honor this couple and how creative we could get, knowing that maybe kazoos isn't the right choice, but it allows us to open our brains in a completely different way.
Karen: That's so perfect. I was going to ask you, how does your performing or your theater past fit in and we can see it right there. Where you can bring that creativity, it sounds like openness. Like, whatever ideas your couple are bringing, sounds like you have a way to incorporate it or make it happen. And because of that experience, you can execute that type of plan.
Hope: It’s also about storytelling. I mean, that's also what I did as a performer. I mean, there was a transitional step in there as well. In the fact that I went from teaching into life coaching.
Karen: Oh, did you?
Hope: I did Cause I said, you know what? I've trained. And we look at, what does a character want in a certain scene, and the tactics do they use to get there? So I was like, huh, that's fascinating. What happens if we remove that layer and say, Hey, you as an individual, what do you want?
And then what can we do together? How can I help guide you? So you can get there. So that's kind of how I started. And then I was like, okay, that's not as interesting to me. Let's stay in this wedding world, and then how can I better guide couples into making sure that they're living in the relationship and living in the marriage that they really want?
Karen: It all comes together.
Hope: It does. I mean, it's so funny, man. I mentioned the catering piece earlier. That always wound up weaving its way, in terms of hospitality, making sure that my couples feel nurtured. All of the administrative stuff that I had done in the theater world. And even as an actor working as a temp, or working as an administrative assistant really allowed me to be able to run a business and communicate very well with other people in the wedding industry, as well as couples.
So basically every single person. And every single job that I've had, surprisingly enough, I've been able to grab the things that work and add it into my current practice.
Karen: I love that. Yeah. Because some folks might look at some things and think it was disjointed, but it actually sounds like there are important pieces that all come together for what you do now.
Hope: Absolutely. I mean, especially because usually the weddings that I do are in either catering halls where there's a catering element for it. I can speak their language. If there's a band or a DJ, I know that world just from the performance element of it, and I can speak their language. So it has helped me a lot in the work that I do. Just saying, I know that world, I can use the vernacular.
Karen: Yeah. So valuable. I'm curious, knowing what you know now, what would you say to your past self? The one who was crying in her pajamas at her friend's house in the middle of the night, like what words would you want to give to her?
Hope: I mean, the first thing that came to me is: it's okay to let go.
Karen: Hmm.
Hope: And I think that's kind of been a theme of our conversation today that it's not necessarily that you're bad at what you do, but there are people that do it better. And there are things that you can do that you haven't found yet that you can do better than anybody else. Stay the course. And that course of course was circular. I mean, it definitely was not a straight path.
Karen: Yeah, but it's okay to let go. That's beautiful. I think there's probably a lot of people that need to hear that.
Hope: Yeah. And the funny thing about that is, I have ankle injuries. I've had multiple sprains and breaks in my left ankle and left foot, including one, right at the end of grad school. And then I had one recently and I mentioned it to a colleague of mine and she's like, well, you know about the ankle, right? And I was like, what? So there are people that believe that there are, if there are certain injuries in the body, It symbolizes something. And the ankle is about you know, holding fast and not wanting to change a direction where you may need to go.
Karen: Interesting.
Hope: Yeah. And I did the math on it and my big injury on my ankle happened three months before I performed that first wedding ceremony.
Karen: Wow. And then your other one was just recently.
Hope: Then one was just recently and that got me a little nervous.
Karen: Yeah. What does that tell you?
Hope: What does that tell me? Like, what is that? And maybe it's not business, maybe it's personal, but it allowed me to go, okay, where do I need to let go? What am I not looking at? Where being stubborn as a Taurus? Like where am I being stubborn that I may need to find another direction?
Karen: Interesting.
Totally. I know that one's good that one's not fully formed yet.
Karen: Yeah. Well, and that's okay. I think that's why I like these conversations too. We're not assuming that you are necessarily at the pinnacle. You're on a career path, but things might change because that's how it works.
I want to ask you about your career crush. Who's your career crush either now or in the past?
Hope: Now, I'm not really sure. I mean, I have a lot of colleagues of mine that I admire how they work in the business. I mean, Oprah of course comes to mind right away. I don't know why.
Karen: You don’t know why?
Hope: Not that I really follow her. I mean, I think that, based on her love of meditation lately, her starting her career from scratch and not letting other people tell her no is pretty amazing. But you know, I don't know if there's that much resonance right now.
But the one that is coming to me a little bit stronger is one of my really close friends who runs a number of restaurants in Atlanta. And I worked with her. Starting about 20 years ago, we were actors in a play together. We both were in foodservice. I was running a catering company. She had a small restaurant and she's like, you have to come work with me. And that relationship has kept up for over 20 years. Now she's expanded from her one restaurant to five and is really all about community. Really about generosity and giving back.
There is something about the relationship of her staff and her community, all of the customers that come into the restaurant, which is very meaningful. And it's looking at those relationships to say, how can that translate? How can I have that same impact with my couples, with my fellow wedding vendors, with the community at large, taking some of the universal knowledge that I have, or knowledge from the wedding industry and making it universal to everyone's path?
Karen: Can you share her name or her restaurant?
Hope: Her name is Jennifer Levison.
Karen: Jennifer Levison.
Hope: She runs five restaurants in Atlanta called Souper Jenny and her latest adventure is she started the Souper Jenny kindness tour where during the pandemic she rented an RV and traveled from Atlanta to LA and back for six weeks offering intentional and random acts of kindness along the way.
Karen: Wow.
Hope: Yeah. And she's like, you need to come. And I say, no, which shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. And I was like, first of all, we're in the pandemic. We're in, in an election cycle, I'm not getting on an RV and traveling, sorry, not happening. But she and her very good friend, Meg Gillentine did it again in the spring. And I joined them for a week of their three week adventure.
Karen: Just recently.
Hope: Just recently, in may where they went from Atlanta to Maine and back. And I joined on the New York to Maine and back leg.
Karen: So you said no. And then you said, yes.
Hope: I know, it's a pattern.
Karen: A pattern, but it's always interesting, it seems like.
Hope: Oh totally to say, okay. How can I do this in a safe way? You know, how can I be a conduit for kindness in a way that they are? How can I potentially shift my thinking in a way, how can I offer something to strangers even? Because for the most part, I really want to make sure that I'm a good resource and a good support system for the people I know.
But what are those little things that you can do for the folks that you don't, and then how would that ripple? That was a very powerful takeaway. And, and especially for someone that runs a business to say, you know what, I'm taking off six weeks, I'm taking off three weeks. Thankfully she has an amazing support circle, an amazing staff, and her business can run. So I don't know if that's something that I'm going to want for the future right now. I kind of like my hand in everything, But I don't know. As I get older, will I expand more? Will I train someone to do what I do? I don't know.
Karen: Interesting. It'll be interesting to see, right? Oh, well that seems like a good place to wrap up. And people can find you, your website is...
Hope: My website is perfectunionny.com
Karen: And then, and you offer premarital counseling virtually?
Hope: So I work in person with couples here in the New York City area, but I work with couples globally, and I've been doing that before the pandemic.
Karen: It was cool, kids!
Hope: Before it was cool to do virtual work. I've been doing that at least for the last five years.
Karen: Okay. Great. Lovely. Well, thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation. It's great to hear about your path and the no’s and yeses and letting go of things. And we will link up your website and your socials in the show notes. And it's really lovely to talk to you. So thank you for being here.
Hope: Oh, my gosh. It was so lovely. What an eye opener! Even on my end to go, huh, interesting!
Karen: I want to share a few of my observations about Hope's story in conclusion. So in the interview, I noticed a couple of things. First of all, she said no to a few things before she said yes. And also, did you notice that she didn't have any shame around that? And I think that is so beautiful because some of us, perhaps people like me, I don't know if anyone else out there is feeling this, but we get terrified of making the wrong decision.
What if I make the wrong decision? And in Hope’s story, I didn't hear any kind of shame or beating herself up over saying no to things that she eventually accepted and took on and that were in fact, the right path for her. So that was really beautiful and really interesting.
And she knows: oh, that's how I am. I'm stubborn. So I say, no. A lesson that I'm taking away from that is maybe we don't have to worry so much. If you say, no, you could also say yes later. It was just a choice or a reaction and another choice can always be made.
So for anyone who has analysis paralysis or fear of making a wrong decision, maybe Hope's story can give you some hope! And to see that, okay, you can say no. And then you can say yes, or you can make one decision and then make another decision and it can turn out fine.
Another thing I noticed was the role of her friends and the outside people who helped her see and notice things that maybe she wasn't noticing. In particular, the friends who came to her in Atlanta and said, do you know, do you think you should leave?
And of course, she said no, but there were people who could see something that she couldn't see. So just the value in having people in your community who care about you, who can show you things that you may not see. Now that’s not to say that she had no idea of her own and just went on and jumped into somebody else's plan for her. It's not like that. They really added a valuable perspective that she couldn't see on her own. So decisions - they can be changed. We don't have to put that much stress on them. And pay attention to the people who can offer you insight into your own life. That's so important.
If you're looking for direction in your own career and would like some support reach out to me, let's connect to figure out how I can help you create your intentional career.
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Resources
Hope’s Website - A More Perfect Union - Website | Instagram | Facebook
The Souper Jenny Kindness Tour - Website
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