EP.11 - How Learning I’m Autistic Changed my Career with Wanda Deschamps

Wanda Deschamps’s career was successful from the outside, but her mid-life autism diagnosis was the missing piece that helped her make sense of her work and life. In this conversation, we discuss the years leading up to her diagnosis, and how Wanda has become an advocate for the inclusion of disabled peoples in her speaking, writing and consulting work.

Transcription

Transcription created with DeScript.

I’m Karen Styles and this is the Intentional Career Podcast. I talk to all kinds of people who take all kinds of paths to work they love I'm a career and life coach and owner of Flow +Fire coaching.

If you’re ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me. There’s a link in the show notes or go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue “Schedule a Call” button. 

Karen: Today, my guest is Wanda Deschamps. She is the founder and principal of Liberty Co, a consultancy focused on increasing the participation level of the neurodiverse population in the workforce with a special emphasis on autism due to Wanda's own diagnosis at mid-life. A champion for inclusion. She enjoys writing and speaking under the banner of hashtag inclusion revolution, a worldwide movement launched in 2018 to spearhead broader thinking about disability, especially disability employment.

Wanda is also the catalyst behind #women4women. Collective focused on gender equality through supporting other women. Combining these two goals provides an avenue for Wanda to be an advocate for women with autism, including as a participant in research, into autistic women's experiences in the workplace.

Welcome Wanda, and thank you so much for joining me today.

Wanda: Thanks for having me.

Karen: Well, you're really open about your autism diagnosis at age 46. And I want to go into your life before that because that's actually when you and I met back in the days when I was a head hunter, I probably contacted you about advancement or development position in the academic world.

And so, I wanted to go back in time and, hear about what your career was like before that. And, maybe that'll lead us to some of the signs that eventually led you to your diagnosis

Wanda: well, outwardly speaking, I guess you could say that my career was linear and it was successful in the sense that I was in the charitable sector for 25 years now in various organizations, I was a consultant for a decade for a national fundraising consultancy. And then the balance of the time I was in institutional development. So it was linear in that sense and it was contained to the sector and I did progress and I guess I say successful because I did progress and because I did enter senior roles, now I use the word outward because inside, it was a very different story. I struggled and I really struggled during those senior institutional development positions around the time of midlife and before my diagnosis and before I entered the entrepreneurship ecosystem.

Karen: So tell me more about what that struggle was like, what were the internal things that were going on and what kind of led you to get that diagnosis or start, reaching out for that kind of support?

Wanda: What I say is that there was always something nodding at me from elementary school, through junior high school university. It lessened. And there were ups and downs. I would say my sense of self-developed around my late twenties and thirties. In fact, I say, if you ask some people who knew me around that time, they would say from the outside, looking in Wanda at her husband had everything. To bring people into my story. I described that time around 40 when we relocated to the priories. And actually, that would have been the time that I first connected with you, Karen. Um, I described that time as one of complete upheaval. So what happened and. You know, my story's rather complicated. And when I was diagnosed with autism, that the professional who diagnosed me said, Wanda, yours is a complicated picture.

So for our listeners to understand things really built. And so that time after 40, until I got my diagnosis a month before my 47th birthday, my health was really declining. And when I write and speak about this, I zero in on late fall, 2016 and the winter of 2017. Because that's when my mental health really became debilitating.

I probably shouldn't have been at work. I probably should have been on health leave. That's part of it. That's part of the lack of self-awareness that's part of the low self-esteem frankly, that's part of my autism is pushing things aside and not really having a clear sense. Of course, I have a much clearer sense now, so that

time was there a pivotal time? I say that my mental health had a crisis point and by May 2017, I had a complete breakdown at work. And the next day after we received my second son's diagnosis, I asked my family physician for my own psychological assessment explaining. I think I have it too. And so then things progressed from there and move very quickly in terms of diagnosis.

Karen: So you had, did you say two sons that were diagnosed with autism?

Wanda: Mmm-hmm. So our first son was diagnosed when we lived in Regina. So, as I mentioned, I could never share my whole story short of writing a book. But that's part of that piece and Regina too, not only was it a really stressful time at work, it was a really stressful time at home. And then those things go together and I wasn't at my best at work and because there was a lot happening at home and vice versa.

So I think you're getting a sense. This is all intertwined.

Karen: Which makes sense. I mean, and I think careers in life always are as much as sometimes we might want to separate them, but it just goes to show us how those two influence each other and how it makes sense that we look at it holistically. so you were starting to put the pieces together, and you asked for your own diagnosis and, presumably, you got that.

I thought it was interesting too because you and I were connected on LinkedIn. And, you definitely went public professionally about it now. I don't know how soon after the fact it was, but I'm interested in, why was that important for you to share with your professional networks?

 It really interested me. And I've been following you, for a few years on that because you've become such a champion and an advocate. So I'm interested to know why was that important to you to go public to everybody with that?

Wanda: So I was fired in the fall of 2018. And I decided to open Liberty co and talked to a few people in my network and got great feedback, really helpful feedback. And I thought that Liberty co was going to service the charitable sector because Karen as we've discussed, that was my background. And despite my health challenges, I enjoyed it.

And I worked with great organizations, great people I learned. So what I say to people is imagine that on one screen, I opened Liberty Cole and I believe that I'm going to service the charitable sector. And I pursue that avenue. Then on another screen am processing my diagnosis. And I decided to read the book autism and heals, which had just been released by Jennifer Cook.

And I read it in the holidays of 2018 and I said, this is my life. Another woman was diagnosed. In adulthood going hurt almost up to that time of midlife without a diagnosis. So many things made sense, reading that book that had never made sense before because the only person I knew was me. And you lose perspective on yourself.

Things aren't clear, especially when you're struggling with your mind. And so I started calling around. I thought, okay, well, Jennifer Cook is great. Jennifer Cook is American. Who in Canada? What autistic women are really sharing their stories publicly? And I couldn't find very many. I started to find some. But very few.

So I emailed and called and reached out to organizations and then some people said, Wanda, what about you? And I, Karen, I was kind of person, if you had told me when I was diagnosed, Wanda are you going to share your story publicly? I would not have thought that. I would have said no, no, not me. That's someone else at the same time in January 19, the world economic forum in Davos, Switzerland had the first ever disability employment panel.

And I heard Caroline Casey and Paul Pullman, the founders of the #Valuable500 and really the founders of the hashtag inclusion revolution. And I sat there and I thought, Wanda, this is a watershed moment for disability inclusion, especially around employment. So these things coalesced and Autism Canada asked me for International Women's Day 2019, I guess, will you write a little introduction to a video of a woman with autism? I said, yes and that was the start. That was the start. And then some, I guess we should say higher profile releases since then.

Karen: Oh, okay. So that was the start of beginning to step into the spotlight and sharing to everyone that, you're autistic and a professional and all of that? 

Wanda: That's right. It was a very short introduction. It was a paragraph really, accompanying a video, but women with autism from the U.S. And, I said to some folks, I started to collaborate with at the time, let's make a commitment that we're going to see huge strides by next year. And then by the following year, in terms of stories being shared. And then my story was shared in Broadview magazine for April the Autism Acceptance Month, issue in April 2020.

Karen: Yeah, I was looking through. You have a feature in Reader's Digest as well. There's a line in there that says, "My diagnosis was like discovering a piece of my brain, picking it up, putting it in place and feeling whole for the first time. This was like receiving the key to unlock my life and live for the first time, according to my own values, principles, beliefs, and choices." and I'll make sure I link to that article in the notes. But, it's so interesting that you mentioned a sense of wholeness. 

Wanda: Yes. 

Karen: Tell me more about that. What started to make sense to you about your life and career with your diagnosis and getting the support that you needed?

Wanda: Well, there's a couple of things. I never knew myself. I wasn't self aware and I didn't know who I was. And then the diagnosis helped me realize -- no wonder there was a lack of clarity. I have a different brain from the majority of the population. So being neurodiverse means you have a different brain makeup from the mainstream population, and that's the majority of the population.

And we estimate that neurodiversity is about 15% of the population. Now, neurodiversity includes ADHD. It's not limited to autism, however, there are co-occurring conditions and, there's dual diagnosis. In other words, we have reason to believe that 15% is actually much higher. So I didn't know myself and I didn't know I had a different brain. So add those things together. 

And then another piece that was hugely helpful, and this is what I was trying to get at with reading Jennifer Cook's book, is that I realized that there are some commonalities among autistics. Now the spectrum is really, really, really long. You met one person with autism, you meet one person with autism. However, there are some commonalities. And so to find out that for instance, there are variances in communications and interpersonal relations and finding out from say a Jennifer Cook, what that actually meant and what that looked like for her. 

Well, that was incredible for me. That was the missing piece. There isn't something wrong with me. There's nothing wrong. It means that I'm different from the mainstream population in these ways. Now, of course, there's a uniqueness to Wanda. You could meet another autistic woman say, "Oh, very different. So sure that's going to happen. 

At the same time, these commonalities are really, really important and there's so much more I could share. It snowballs. So I know who I am, so I'm more relaxed. So I'm better able to connect with people, even though the way I connect with people is different, again, from the mainstream. I am better able to connect because I'm more relaxed. I do know who I am. I am better able to judge, okay, ask that question, maybe don't ask that question. Or, it's a good time to listen now there's no need to talk. I find I have much better judgement. Because I'm comfortable in my own skin. This is a really huge piece, Karen, we could talk so much.

Karen: Just listening to you talk about being comfortable in your own skin, and I love that that's what it has led you to when you compare your career, your work life now in comparison to what it was like before, what's different for you? What has changed for you?

Wanda: Well, I've gone through a huge shift that most people would not go through in their lifetime. So that is, finding out that you have a different brain makeup at the age of 47. It's been four years now, but that's a relatively short time when you're 51. So that's significant. 

The other thing is I became an entrepreneur. Again, lots of people do not pursue entrepreneurship in their lifetime. And I left a sector I was involved in for 25 years. So, any one of those things, okay being diagnosed and staying in the sector still would have been a significant change. Not receiving a diagnosis and leaving your traditional career path is significant in and of itself.

So, things are really different. They're really, really different. It's like a new person and a new person on a totally different career path. And then let's just spice this up even more and add to it. My work is in the area of neurodiversity. So I'm working in an area that I didn't even know pertained to me until four years ago. And I just shared with you, it's not like everything was on a fast track that day. I got the diagnosis summer of 2017, but I didn't read that book and really have that light bulb moment until a year and a half later. And then I didn't start sharing my story. And, you know, sharing my story was a process that evolved, from a paragraph to 3000 words.

So it's a huge amount of change. It's very different than say, look back at Wanda's life five, six years ago. But I believe it is a good fit for me. I really believe that working in this area of neurodiversity disability generally, and then neurodiversity more specifically, and then within that autism and then the intersection of autism and gender, I really believe that this is what I was meant to do.

And, one final thing, I guess I would say, you know, how is it different? I really can't highlight enough because I'm living MY life. This is Wanda. This is not who someone else says Wanda should be. This is not who Wanda has decided that day is going to have power over her because she doesn't know who she is. I am living Wanda's life as an openly autistic entrepreneur.

Karen: This comes from my life coaching background because I'm always thinking about managing a cycle of change. It's a ton of changes that you've experienced all in a short period of time. How are you dealing with and managing those changes in your life then from multiple areas?

Wanda: Well, Karen, my life has been one of upheaval from birth. So, when people ask me, didn't you know you were different? Why did it take you 47 years? What I say is, oh, I knew I was different, but my family was different. So maybe now would be helpful to share that my family is a neurodiverse anomaly. When I'm saying family I mean my family of origin, my parents and siblings.

So my life has been one of huge change from birth and I have learned from that. And I learned a lot of good. And that's one of the reasons that my diagnosis was delayed, is that I learned to cope with a lot of change. I've learned to cope with a lot of uncertainty. There was always a lot of uncertainty in my life.

We moved when I was 40, and then we moved again when I was 45. So I received my diagnosis in a province I had only lived in for two years. So, I've definitely sharpened my coping skills though. I learned to live more in the moment because of my anxiety. I wanted to think on the horizon and again, some of that's good.

It's good to have a plan and it's good to be planning ahead, however, it was too much. And as I mentioned to you, I was doing a lot of that because I was so anxious. So I learned to practice gratitude. Every day. I say to myself, Wanda, what good things have happened today? And I focus on those. I practice gratitude.

I live in the moment. I still bring in lots of resources. I have to because I'm working in the field, so I have to stay on top of it. It's a changing dynamic so I pull in lots of resources. I'm very open to learning and I surround myself with great people.

Karen: You seem to be such a master networker community builder. I suspect that comes from, working in the field of fundraising as well. It's really important to build relationships, but just watching you from a distance and seeing the people that you're connecting with and supporting and promoting.

 I see that happening all over LinkedIn. So is it right to say that there's a lot of that that brings joy to your work and life as well?

Wanda: Absolutely. In fact, just to give you another sense of that duality, I would give too much power and spend too much time thinking about people that I didn't have the best experiences with. Who, I realize now, didn't understand me and I didn't understand myself. So instead of just parking it and saying, okay, not connecting with that person, just leave it for now. I would get too worked up and I would place too much emphasis and I would place too much stake in it. And my husband would say, Wanda, you have the most incredible people in your life. Why are you spending time thinking about that person or thinking about that? Just let go.

And so the short answer to your question is, yes. It's been something that's been with me. I've had huge challenges, but the constant's been I've had fantastic people and I have more and more fantastic people. And I have noticed that since I've shared my story. Yes. So many people have reached out. The other thing that I hope is helpful to our listeners is that people treat me differently because I treat myself differently. And I believe that those people that I could become fixated on if I had treated myself differently, they wouldn't have treated me in the same way. 

And I say that, so I hope that's helpful to other people. To someone who interviewed me once said, "Well, it sounds like belonging starts with you and accepting you." And I said, "Yes, it does."

Karen: I feel like I'm learning so much from you. Like your story is for everyone. Yes, I want people who are neurodiverse to hear themselves as well, but also, these themes of belonging and treating yourself the way you should be treated first. So, so much to gain from that.

 I'm wondering when you think back to that, Wanda, of maybe it's seven, eight years ago, the Wanda that was outwardly successful, but had something gnawing inside her that didn't know what was going on and was struggling. If you could speak to that version of yourself, what would you say to her to provide some encouragement or hope?

Wanda: Believe in yourself.

Karen: Hmm.

Wanda: It may sound like an oversimplification, but it's not. Because if I had believed in myself, believed in Wanda, there's something behind that gnawing. I would've asked more questions. I would have stood up for myself when people push back and said, no, no, no, there's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with insert word work environment.

The way people are behaving issues of sexism, issues of insert whatever, you know, under-representation. I would have said no, no, there are. But what would happen is, I didn't know myself. I didn't believe in myself. I wasn't self-aware so I would raise issues, and then people would push back and I would just say, okay. Until I didn't. And what I say is that when I got my diagnosis, I began to look at everything through a new prism. And that's not limited to diagnosis. You know lots of people, you interview, lots of people, you connect with lots of people, you know that people say they go through a divorce or a parent dies or they move or something.

And they say, they start to look at everything through a new prism. So that's not just limited to Wanda and her diagnosis. But it's certainly relevant. And so I began to look and relook at everything. And the other thing that I think is really important is that so many of the issues that I raised and so many of the things that bothered me, the short-term and long-term. So I was raising them and there were some people who didn't want to believe they were happening or were in denial. There are some people who just didn't truly understand. Well since George Floyd, they understand. Since the remains of 215 residential school children have been found, they understand. Since Me Too, they understand. COVID and the heightened inequalities, they're starting to understand. So that's another thing. If I had believed in myself more, I also believe I would have been more patient and I would have said, okay, fine, fine. You don't see this now. Okay. Again, let's park it. These things are easy to say. I have the value of perspective now.

 But just in terms of looking and relooking and re-evaluating, again, I hope this is helpful because you hit on something and then you say that you feel my story's resonating and you're not neurodiverse that I know of, and it's resonating. And I do want to say that it's been wonderful. I do hear from a lot of people and I always say it's really special when I hear from an autistic. It's really special when I hear from a neurodiverse community member. I've heard from lots of people who are not part of those communities, but for whatever reason, it's because they didn't belong. It's because they experienced discrimination, they had mental health. They say your story spoke to me.

Karen: Which leads to the importance of sharing our stories. And that's why I even launched this podcast to look at how all kinds of people take all kinds of paths to find work they love. You mentioned something, you mentioned, George Floyd, the thousands of indigenous children who have been found, Me Too, all of these movements. And, I remember right at the beginning of the COVID shut down, I don't know who I was following.

It was somewhere on Instagram, but people were talking about how the corporate world is so ableist and how, disabled people were saying, okay, we've been saying for years, we need accommodations to work from home. We need support. And you're saying, nope we can't make those accommodations.

And suddenly, the whole world knows that we now can make accommodations. So you're smiling. Can you, tell me what you're thinking? And can you speak to that in what we're seeing and, maybe how we know more about how we can and should support disabled folks in the workplace?

Wanda: I'm smiling because you're bang on. And it's something I had the good fortune of writing about almost immediately. I was contacted by an organization and they asked me if I would write about COVID, and in particular from the autistic perspective. And that's what I said. I said, the things that disability community members have been asking for for years, if not decades, flexibility in terms of working location, increased technological supports and more customized communication, especially with supervisors they were asked for and denied. Why? Too expensive, too inconvenient. They were put in place in one weekend for an estimated 60% of our workforce when we went viral during COVID. So that is why COVID has been so important in terms of accelerating the need for supports in the workplace for disabled persons is because there's no going back now.

We can't be told that it can't be done. We know it can be done. This would have been an example of something that I had asked for, was told no. Something that I knew could happen but was not believed. And something that I am more able to influence from the outside than I ever was from the inside of an organization. So thank you for giving me such a good example to speak to.

Karen: Oh, that's so great that you now can influence in a way that you couldn't before. There was, I guess, you were trying to advocate for yourself and now you can go in and consult and give advice as to how organizations can do this. I'm interested also in how this relates to the talent tsunami and the great resignation that's going on.

And I'm wondering and hoping that there are going to be more opportunities for disabled persons in the workforce as well now. What are your thoughts on that? Are you seeing trends? 

Wanda: Oh, absolutely seeing trends. And you said that during our talk at one point, you're smiling, and generally my tone is one of hope and optimism for several reasons. Going back to that panel at Davos. Okay? That was pre-COVID. So this is not just COVID. COVID has accelerated the need. It has heightened awareness, but this was all building pre-COVID, for a number of reasons. Forces, huge forces, the proliferation of technology, globalization, all those other movements that we just talked about, black lives matter, indigenous reconciliation Me Too, so these are all colliding. And now the disability community is saying yes, and we're going to have our own movement too. And so just to make it real for people and give a specific example, although it's not limited to employment, We the 15 was launched just before the Tokyo Paralympics, and it's the first disability worldwide movement of its kind that saying along with race and ethnicity and sexual orientation and gender, we're going to have our own movement. 

And it's going to be focused on the rights of that 15% of the population. Again, we’ve reason to believe it's higher. It's 20% in Canada, at least if not more of the disability population or 1.3 billion worldwide, and we are going to be employed and we're going to be employed at levels commensurate with our skills and talents. We're not going to be underemployed and we're going to be represented in media, in ads and on TV. 

We're going to have inclusive leadership, so we're not going to be in the lowest rungs. No, we're going to be political leaders. We are political leaders, but we need activity commensurate with our numbers of the worldwide population. And so, yes, amazing things are happening. A moment under diversity, again, things were happening pre-COVID. But again, COVID has accelerated it because we need more digital talent because at that pace of change during COVID and employers are recognizing that. And there is the great resignation and there are so many things happening. It's a good time. 

I would never, ever, ever wish for these horrendous things to have happened like the murder of George Floyd, the findings of remains residential school children, however, they've happened. So now what do we do? Okay. We move forward in a way that we never have before. So I do write and speak under the banner inclusion revolution, but for people who want to go to my LinkedIn page, #wethe15 is there now.

Karen: It makes so much sense that your company is called Liberty Co. I was just making that connection as I was listening to you talk about getting employment commensurate with the skills and experience. And I felt like I was in church and I wanted to be like, yeah, preach!

And this is all about these big ideals of equality and inclusion and liberation. So tell us about Liberty co. Do you want to share more about why it is named that and what you do for your organization?

Wanda: Well, Liberty Co was named as such because confronting the facts brings us freedom. And so you're right, it is very much tied with the liberation of being free to be yourself, whoever you are, and especially if you haven't felt included. And so I live my life that way as I hope, an example to some folks of that real Wanda, and I say, unashamed unafraid, undeterred as an openly autistic person.

So, what I do is I go into organizations and I help them build their capacity around neurodiverse talent. And I place emphasis on inclusive leadership, which I think you've already picked up on. I'm very passionate about that. I say from the boardroom to the C-suite to the office cubicle, neurodiverse talent can thrive and flourish when our skills and talents are matched with organizational goals and objectives. I also have a focus on entrepreneurship, especially around disabled women and autistics and the neurodiverse population. And I am very passionate about retention, some of that is related to my own experiences.

So going back to that linear path, there are some organizations that were very excited about hiring me as an institutional development leader, but then there are issues around retaining me. And I believe that doesn't have to be the case. So I don't want the emphasis to leave at neurodiverse hiring, autism hiring. I want it to say, and be there around retention. 

Because actually, the overall picture there is that persons with disabilities actually tend to stay longer for a whole host of reasons, including we understand the preciousness of having a job because the majority of us don't. So I really believe that we can make a shift in retention right across the disability spectrum, not see turnover, especially with disabled women, neurodiverse women, autistic women. So those are some of my areas of emphasis and I'm really enjoying them. And looking to partner with more organizations.

Karen: Well, I'll definitely put the links to your company in the show notes and hopefully, folks who are looking for help in attracting and retaining, neurodiverse talent can reach out to you then. Shifting the focus a little bit, something I like to ask all of my guests is, who is your career crush? Kind of like a less boring way of saying, who inspires you? 

Wanda: Caroline Casey,

Karen: Okay.

Wanda: The founder of The Valuable 500. This is a tough question because there are so many. Carla, our federal minister. She was reelected in the recent federal election. She has a big portfolio and it does tap into inclusion and workforce development. And she is a mother of four and she was a Paralympian. So she's a tremendous role model. There are so many. When it comes to gender equity, Anita hill. That's a lofty career crush.

And I've read the memoir of Beverly McLachlin, the first woman Supreme Court Justice in Canada. There are so many women, so many women I admire, not only through Women for Women, but that is certainly a pathway for me to connect with incredible women beyond that. There are so many, I'd like to give a shout out to Wendy Souk here, founder and the academic director of the Diversity Institute at Ryerson, I could go on and on.

Karen: It's a great list and I love asking that question because people usually, light up when they think about all of these people that they admire. And, you know, I think having a, having a career crush gives us a certain kind of energy and inspiration and shows us maybe what's possible as well.

Well, thank you so much for sharing this time with me. Is there anything else that you want to say or share with our listeners as we sign off today?

Wanda: I hope folks will keep in mind that disability is a dimension of diversity. So along with race, ethnicity, gender sexual orientation, all kinds of other facets of diversity, there's disability and that within that, there's neurodiversity, of course, and autism. We're still behind in terms of coming to an agreement, coming to the realization that that's true.

I really think We the 15 will help if there's ever anything folks can do to help with that, if they're interested, it's a matter of when they're involved in conversations, when they're involved in activity and programs and supports, and it's a DEI or IDE, if they can remember to add an, a for IDEA and accessibility within that, it's those kinds of things that over time will make a huge difference. So that is what I'm putting out there.

Karen: Well, thank you for that. And thank you for joining me today. Really great to hear your story and, your passion for area. So thank you.

Wanda: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Karen: Thank you so much for listening. It means so much that you spend part of your day with me. If you enjoyed this episode go to Apple Podcasts and leave a 5-star review. It helps other people find the podcast, and my hope is that if more people find the Intentional Career Podcast, then more people can create their Intentional Careers.

If you’re ready to create your intentional career with the support of a coach, schedule a call with me. There’s a link in the show notes or you can go to intentionalcareer.co and click the blue “Schedule a Call” button in the top right corner. 

Episodes are released every 2nd Wednesday, so I’ll see you in 2 weeks for more of the Intentional Career Podcast!

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